Does Consciousness create the physical world?

topic posted Wed, March 2, 2005 - 5:08 AM by  Modok
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Let's cut right to the chase. My belief is that Consciousness is more "real" than "reality". The idealist philosophy comes in many shapes and guises but essentially claims that all of this stuff that is so obviously real, right in front of our faces, is in fact, all an illusion. Even better, it appears to be a shared illusion. It seems that we are tiny pieces of a much larger consciousness.

This means, of course, that we are responsible for the mess the world is in today. It also means we are responsible for all of the joyful and wonderful experiences as well. And all of the beauty.

When I say "we" are responsible, the fun part is ruminating on just "who" is doing the collapsing of all those probability waves. Humans are an arrogant lot and most people wouldn't like to consider the fact that we share our reality creation with other forms of consciousness, but why not? For that matter, what is consciousness anyway? Is a tree conscious? Who can say definitively? You can measure a reaction from a plant if you tell it that you are going to cut off all of its leaves. Is it conscious?

Certainly the materialists will scoff and tell us that consciousness is mere epiphenomena of the brain. I don't buy it. Take the plant for instance. It obviously doesn't have a brain. Yet it plainly reacts to emotional input.

So, what are you thoughts?
posted by:
Modok
China
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  • My thoughts are that you are correct in your assertion.


    Synergy

    1: the working together of two things (muscles or drugs for example) to produce an effect greater than the sum of their individual effects [syn: synergy] 2: the theological doctrine that salvation results from the interaction of human will and divine grace
    • Perception creates "reality"... Whatever "reality" may be, it seems to be 'something' which we actively create during the process of perception; 'something' which reflects a highly personal set of (belief-)systems. So, is it actually feasible then to arrive at a common definition of "consciousness"? At this point, my best answer to that is that I just-don't-know.


      But I do know this:

      "Life represents the movement of knowledge
      accros the spectrum of consciousness"
      --author unknown


      "consciousness"

      There's that mysterious word again ;-)


      d.
  • Re: Does Consciousness create the physical world?

    Mon, March 21, 2005 - 11:01 PM
    I think all living things are conscious. However, consciousness only creates the physical world inasmuch as without it there would be nobody or nothing to experience it. But who knows how many universes and dimensions there are out there unable to sustain life? Just because nothing is living there doesn't mean they don't exist. As for our world, I think the physical world has far more impact on consciousness than vice versa. After all, the entire hundreds of millions of years of evolution on this planet have revolved around such parameters as temperature, pressure, oxygen levels, humidity, soil, etc. It's interesting to think of it all as illusion, but as a physicist, I can say with a great degree of certainty that our hopes, dreams, and wishes are the only illusions in our lives.
    • I must relay how incredibly refreshing it is to hear others speak of the illusion of reality. Jeremy and Modok, your posts particularly resonate with me. I live every day trying to reconcile within myself this seemingly "real" physical world. I cannot, and do not want to, shake the idea that it's all one big perceptual illusion. Science is confronting materialists with increasing evidence against the theory that physical matter is the only reality.

      As far as Consciousness...

      As "the subjective awareness of internal and external events" (my Psych book definition), consciousness does require a "subject". Is a subject anything with an 'inside' and an 'outside'? How does one measure awareness? By responses? Is a DNA molecule conscious?
      I suppose some of those questions do not warrant any answers, but the use of language can be seen a conditioner of consciousness a limitation in understanding what it is.

      What is the role of Linguistics?

      I apologize for babbling.

      • On page 198-200 of "the yoga of time". Dr Wolf advances the concept that forgiveness is “time travel,” and that it is only possible after letting go of the ego, the results of which change the past, its outcomes and thereby the present and future.

        But Wolf is just scratching the surface; I think it may be more correct to say that all forms of closures lead to traveling back in time. Whether its, through forgiveness, empathy, the grieving process, prayer or any other activity that completes a karmic wheel, results in karmic fulfillment or more correctly a temporal loop.

        Getting closure is what’s significant, since as the history is altered the cause and effect going backwards in time (perceived by the recipient as an insight) creates a temporal loop that that now goes forward to reinforcing itself so that it becomes self sustaining and persistence.

        It is this persistence of information that creates reality, one that wins out in any contest of consensus reality. Ordinarily the Consensus of reality will emerge as a phase state created by all the actors on the stage. Each opinion of reality contradicting or reinforcing any others, But when these opinions come up against a self sustaining and persistent temporal loop, the temporal loop will carry more weight in the formation of reality.

        Note that at least 3 of the 11 dimensions of reality are bound closed loops of information. I believe that sustaining forgiveness is also a closed loop of information that underlies the formation of reality
        • Ah, time. Another of my favorite obsessions!

          This is a fresh take, for me, at least, on time travel, in the sense that as we travel forward and backward in time in our thoughts we are, in fact, altering the present. Forward travel in the form of daydreams, worries, speculation, planning, etc. can affect the present for better or worse and no doubt plays a major factor in how reality takes shape around you. Up the scale and our collective musings have an impact on our everyday life.

          Looks like I need to check out "The Yoga of Time"!
          • I don’t think you’re quite getting it.

            Say you’re feeling bad after you mothers traffic accident funeral, because you didn’t get a chance to say you loved her. This becomes an issue that you need closure on. Though meditation and reflection you wish you had called her. Then two months earlier you get an insight that you should call your mother, you do so, and tell her you love her. Your grief today is somewhat relived, and you feel some closure. This reinforces the correctness of your decision to meditate in the first place, causing you to do it again. This loop will now continue as a self sustaining temporal loop that never ends, altering the present reality of anyone else that may have had a different understanding.

            The big question is, how can you give yourself another insight to tell her not to drive that day.

            I know this sounds nuts, but consider the difference between what 2000 years of learning about forgiveness has done for western civilization, as compared to cultures that still believe in punishment.
            • I believe I "got" what you were talking about but chose to take it in another direction. The idea of closure can just as easily be applied in the future as the past. Say you have an issue with someone in the present. You can meditate on a "future" confrontation with that person and resolve the issues that remain. If successful, you will no longer be burdened with the associated emotional "charge" and will be free to pursue other paths rather than wallowing in frustration. You can even cause events, thoughts, synchronicities, etc. to occur in the past, present or future as a result of this meditated course of action. This exercise, if performed successfully, will also create the self-sustaining temporal loop but 180 degrees out of phase with the one you were describing.
            • Please explain what 2000 years of "learning about forgiveness" has done for Western civilization. Our idea of justice does not reflect a 'turn the other cheek' attitude associated with forgiveness. We are a culture that believes in punishment, no doubt about it. I believe we can resolve things within ourselves and come to a better understandings of ourselves as individuals by way of meditation and introspection. Analysis of motives and emotions surely have something to do with this loop of which you speak. But my understanding falls short right about here.

              >This loop will now continue as a self sustaining temporal loop >that never ends, altering the present reality of anyone else that >may have had a different understanding.

              How would self-understanding necessarily carry over to anyone elses perception of reality?
              • Unsu...
                 
                Molly, I agree with you.
                (BTW awesome avatar ! - thought you were playing the flute before I had a closer look)

                Im a little lost too about how and why temperal correlated perspective looping creates a persistant standing wave-effect (for desparate want of a better phrase - which Im assuming is "pinched off" to be continually present in the past and the future) that imposes a field of subjective experience on all those whoes "attention is primed for the subject" (or shared in whatever experience is related - but aren't they (meaning who and which events) also highly subjective to the "creater" of the loop/wave? as well as the creaters intention/perspective and what that involved at the time of loop creation ?

                If true, is this a general rule for any reality phenomena to be a shared experience ? If so it sounds like a chicken and the egg thing. (however it is a thought with self-defining integrity) .... if not why not ? what makes that consciousness so different ? and why are its "realitiy rules" that alien ?

                Perhaps simular "phenomena" could easier explained as
                (however still having the same self-defining flaws unfortunately):

                "Expectation attracts subjectively correlated events"
                (which drives what you prime your attention for anyway)

                How that expectation forms in the first place is again subjectively dependant and iteratively defining.

                I view mutual reality-causation like magnets thrown in a tub of glue that is itself subject to the "weather" that the movement of the magnets make...

                Although each magnet can perhaps change its polarity on its own, they have their own "polarity" inertia (how long it takes for your perspective to readjust), orientation inertia (glue increases this) and will also effect each others orienation due to magnetic field effects (sort of like how stars move in a globular cluster)

                Perhaps when you "dream" this rule applies still
                however there is no glue and no other "magnets" messing with yours - thus causation is much faster and events are almost continually consistent to your expectations (genearlly emotive driven expectations).

                This would also explain why dream events that "dont make sense" during waking reflection did not seem to occur to you at the time of dreaming (your attention was too focused on the next expectation - "giving freedom" for what you did direct your attention to).

                If so, this could also explain what I posted in your "Local reality" thred.

                The only advantage this has over "M"'s view is that it can be applied to all consciousness (regardless how alien they ... lets say atoms have consciousness ... their expectations sets could focus on reality directed by forces that dominate their environment - still allowing expectation synergy with "us" and the rest of the world - Perhaps if it didnt we woudl be sharing it).

                Psy studies have been done on psychic skills with the results seeming to favour what the originator of the experiement was expecting to see - even though the environments were controlled and the sample groups large and random.

                (Thus the "observer" is releavent even for macroscopic occurances - Quantum physics also concludes the same)

                [ Making Repeatability extremely difficult as all you may be doing is creating a snapshot of combined expectations ]

                One small note: Materialists will not stop until they can explain everything, if even such elusive thing as "subjective expectation" is releavent - it would be a property they would want to chase and measure to later expliot just like the rest of us. (they may just be going down the "hard path" to do so)

                (BTW I thought anything 180 degrees out of phase with our reality could share the same space-time but not be noticed)
      • Feel free to babble as much as you like!!

        Linguistics is a very useful tool. A lot of information can be packed into a word or concept. Chinese characters have loads of meaning in just one image. Alas, no one has the exact same ideas of what everything truly means as it is all filtered through our unique viewpoint and so language remains imperfect. Still, until telepathy is improved as a method of communication, it will have to do.

        I’m trying to get "out of the box" somewhat with my definition of consciousness and give it a higher level, so to speak, or a closer level to "base reality" than the concepts that attempt to keep it confined in one canister, like my head for instance. For example, true knowledge does not necessarily come from the mind but resonates deep within. A lot of our knowledge is emotionally based. Some is purely tactile. Other knowledge comes through the quantum connections of our group mind. I believe you can experience many things way beyond our mere human scope, to the point where our tiny minds seem insignificant. Awareness certainly plays a part in our everyday conscious lives but I don't believe that I am aware of more than the tiniest fraction of the totality of the consciousness of which I'm part.

        I wish to know the consciousness of which I am just a fragment. That is far beyond the puny scope of my physical brain and mindself. And yet, there is a part of me which is able to experience it. The part is connected to the whole. I well know my individual consciousness that I label as "self" or sometimes "Self" but you can go up the scale and experience multitudes of selves as one. Of you can traverse sideways and experience "past lives" or "alternate selves".

        I find it hard as hard to define consciousness from this perspective as it is to define "god".

        There, now I’ve gone and babbled.

        ;-)>

        + Modok +
        • Re: Does Consciousness create the physical world?

          Fri, March 25, 2005 - 10:05 AM
          As a Christian, (I am neither right wing or a Bush supporter)
          the belief in Prayer has the same affect. Christians believe that if you Pray, even after the event, it can change the outcome.
          Time for a Christian, when speaking of what God can and cannot do, is the same. time is relative, God is time, he can change anything he/she wishes to.
          In the book of Exodus, there was the plaque of darkness.
          For three days, the sun did not rise on Egypt. There has been a similar story found in American Indian legends, of the time the sun did not set.
          All fascinating stuff.
          If a Christian viewpoint on these subjects bothers anyone, please say and I won't post Christian stuff again :-)
          Carol
          • >> If a Christian viewpoint on these subjects bothers
            >> anyone, please say and I won't post Christian stuff again

            It seems to me that the idea of consciousness being discussed here is exactly the same consciousness that the Buddhist and Christian mystics have been talking about for ages --- the so-called 'Buddha-mind' and 'Christ-consciousness' --- and that it is possible to connect with this consciousness, typically through such activities as meditation, prayer and love.
            • Daniel,
              exactly the point I was trying to make. Some scientific minded people tend to disagree at this point though.
              • I believe it's a question of the paradigm to which you choose to ascribe. If operating under a strictly materialistic paradigm, there is little to no room for this kind of thinking, except, perhaps, under the quantum mind approach. In that case, many of life's seemingly unexplainable phenomena can be "allowed" into the discussion. For example, psychic phenomena, which many strict materialists will feel compelled to dismiss as outright poppycock, can now be theoretically examined through interesting interpretations of non-locality. It is a stretch, though, and makes many physicists uncomfortable, if not downright grouchy when you try to bring it into “serious” conversation.

                I understand and respect those who choose to operate under what seems to me to be an extremely limited framework. Then again, I don't really feel the need to specialize in any field either and may never be viewed as much of an authority on anything as a result. There are plenty of people who enrich science and other fields by laboring with single-minded focus on subjects well within the comfort zone of the currently vogue scientific paradigm. I understand that to such folk unverifiable information is simply extraneous and a waste of valuable time. More power to them!

                Of course, many breakthroughs arise from attempts to merge seemingly unrelated disciplines and it is this approach that I find more to my liking. As such, I try to keep as open a mind as possible and am willing to consider a great deal as falling with the realms of possibility. In many ways, this is a more challenging way to operate because with fewer constraints there are fewer constants. I have my own standards of logic which must be upheld that I believe include the standard model but also allow a somewhat larger arena in which to play.

                Religious views likewise confine one’s views to a certain paradigm, offering the benefits of an in depth plumbing of the belief system. My own tendency to, perhaps superficially, study various systems and take what I like and fashion my own spirituality may or may not allow me to reap the same rewards that a devotee to one path can potentially achieve but such an approach is fundamental to my being, as is respect to all paths.

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